Curse

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Okay, then how about you beat the mission and instead of a skill point, you get an elite point, and make the bonus a skill point, since you already get skill points from leveling - that way if you need regular skill points you can do the bonus.

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

No real prob with this, but I see this coming VERY close to 2 seperate games.

Nah, we're just coming up with ideas (that we should have done in the first place...lol) that makes unlocking less time-consuming. So you have one character unlock everything and just make a pvp customized with your finds. I would rather quest a rune and then do a bunch of PvE areas looking for what I need.

Lazarous · May 13, 2005, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Thats sounds like a better split, since the regular skills have missions of their own to unlock so a person could choose bonus missions or the side missions.

Still seems like an awful lot of rehashing content for no real reason, but it's vastly superior to what's currently available.

Laz

Manderlock · May 13, 2005, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

Nah, we're just coming up with ideas (that we should have done in the first place...lol) that makes unlocking less time-consuming. So you have one character unlock everything and just make a pvp customized with your finds. I would rather quest a rune and then do a bunch of PvE areas looking for what I need.

Agreed, I was talking about xaanix's idea. I would actual like to have the runes questing system, but have it only be minor and major. If you want the big dadys, you have to work for it.

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Agreed (to Laz), that's why I was trying to be simple in terms of implementing lol.

I like xaanix's idea because the unlocks are random, it's a gift every 15 fame, and people who pvp all the time would have no real advantage over someone who just did some rune quests and elite quests. If you quest for runes, I would rather it go all the way or not at all lol.

Siren · May 13, 2005, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laz

That is of course the entire problem. You've done the mission, you know exactly what to do, you know exactly whats going to happen. Thats pretty damned boring.

Then what do you suggest? lol I mean, we're not going to be able to come up with the perfect solution here. There's going to be something not entirely in harmony with everyone, but at least most of the problem would be addressed. And really, when all is said and done, I think having minor residual like that of repeated playthoughs is pretty damn good considering all the improvements we've come up with. I think it's a pretty damn good trade-off. The only "boring" parts become re-running missions. Other than that, you're able to unlock a hell of a lot with minimal "grind."

Sounds like a pretty good deal to me, Laz.

EDIT: First post on page 2. What timing. Go me. ~_^

Lazarous · May 13, 2005, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

If you want the big dadys, you have to work for it.

Yeah, i feel so fulfilled after farming hill giants in riverside for a few hours. Makes life worth living.

Manderlock · May 13, 2005, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

Agreed, that's why I was trying to be simple in terms of implementing lol.

I like xaanix's idea because the unlocks are random, it's a gift every 15 fame, and people who pvp all the time would have no real advantage over someone who just did some rune quests and elite quests.

Hmmmmmm, I think I see what you mean.

Do you mean that xaanix's plan would only happen after you have beat the game once? If so that would be a great idea. Not making two different games, and yet not forcing PvPer to play through the whole game again.

EDIT: Laz dont start with your sarcsim. I am here to present my views, you are here to present yours. DONT turn this into the other thread.

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

Hmmmmmm, I think I see what you mean.

Do you mean that xaanix's plan would only happen after you have beat the game once? If so that would be a great idea. Not making two different games, and yet not forcing PvPer to play through the whole game again.

EDIT: Laz dont start with your sarcsim. I am here to present my views, you are here to present yours. DONT trun this into the other thread.

Yuppers, once a pve character gets to tombs, all the person has to do is win a few rounds here and there, and BAM gift.

Lazarous · May 13, 2005, 05:00 AM // 05:00

What, you don't find farming riverside fullfilling? Then why keep superiors drop only?

Opposing views, huh? Alright, if there was a rune quest reward it should increase all the way through superiors.

If they could tie the rune rewarded to your current classes, like the various skill quest rewards that'd also be a plus.

I'm partially against the pvp rewards because it seems like it'll be a positive feedback loop that ends up excluding people who haven't had enough preperation, thus rendering it mostly useless.

How about this - you have special 'unlock' arenas, where if you win x matches you get the skill unlocked, but if you lose y matches (y>x) you also unlock something.

Laz

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

I'm partially against the pvp rewards because it seems like it'll be a positive feedback loop that ends up excluding people who haven't had enough preperation, thus rendering it mostly useless.

How about this - you have special 'unlock' arenas, where if you win x matches you get the skill unlocked, but if you lose y matches (y>x) you also unlock something.

Laz

Okay, as for every 15 fame getting a random unlock - so your a warrior/monk, you just got 15 fame, your random unlock is an icey bow string.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaanix

A Concern? - The positive feedback loop

One of the most common themes of objection to pvp rewards is the positive feedback loop, where the top teams become even more powerful due to the pvp rewards they've earned. This is certainly present in wow's pvp rewards system. Is it present here?

Maybe a mild one, but does it matter? consider the following:
- First, unlike even the current rewards system (sigil + drops in HOH), this system DISTRIBUTES the rewards across all the players in tombs based on skill.
- Secondly, at the lower rungs of tombs, the competition will not be very fierce. Any group can be successful in the earlier levels of tombs if they have even the smallest amount of coordination. If a specific group you joined cant win, invariably it will break up and the pieces will be reabsorbed by different groups. Inevitably one of them will win a few matches. For this reason, even some of the weakest link pvp players can progress their accounts under this system in pvp *IF* they choose to.
-Thirdly, due to the lower cap on fame i'm suggesting, Winning the hall of heroes isnt really a key part of this unlocking mechanism. I think Holding HOH already has plenty of rewards (the announcement, the sigil, and the item). Certainly a team interested in acquiring fame for use with this system would find it in their interest to keep holding HOH (for 8 fame a round) as opposed to starting over and earning 1 fame for that same amount of time spent, but it doesnt present an overwhelming amount of power to those who are capable of holding hoh.
-Finally, all the unlocks are ultimately always available through pve as a last resort. Any arguments that this system provides an unfair advantage to pvpers who spend lots of time in pvp also becomes an argument that pve'ers who spend alot of time in pve have an unfair advantage in pvp. Thus pve'ers already have their own positive feedback loop.

For those who don't read everything posted.

Lazarous · May 13, 2005, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Right, but those points don't honestly address the issue. If pvp only rewards victors, and you can't join a guild team at that point for whatever reason most people will choose to go do the assured path for unlocking stuff (farming) then the much more unsure path (pvp winning rewards). Thats why i suggested the arena that gives unlocks even when you lose, as i don't believe you ever get fame when you lose in tombs.

Laz

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Right, but those points don't honestly address the issue. If pvp only rewards victors, and you can't join a guild team at that point for whatever reason most people will choose to go do the assured path for unlocking stuff (farming) then the much more unsure path (pvp winning rewards). Thats why i suggested the arena that gives unlocks even when you lose, as i don't believe you ever get fame when you lose in tombs.

Laz

That's why not only xaanix, but myself included, said it was a passive reward, and that, in my first post, I combined it with a streamlined version of the SoC system.

Lazarous · May 13, 2005, 05:29 AM // 05:29

I'm not really sure what you mean by saying its a passive reward - its directly tied to your victories, which seems pretty active to me. Its a direct corollation between victories and stuff, much like killing mobs = stuff for pve.

Are you also saying that you were asking about implementing all those ideas concurrently, and not our opinions on the individual ideas?

Laz

Manderlock · May 13, 2005, 05:35 AM // 05:35

I love farming, you dont seem to. That gives no excuse what you said.

If you reward people for losing, why win at all? Dont you think that it will kill some of the competitvness? I like the 15 fame, cause casual players wont have to work extreamly hard to get it, and hardcore players will have to contiune to gain 15 untill they get what they need.

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 05:45 AM // 05:45

It's passive in the fact that it is a random unlock, it could be anything at first, but the more you unlock the more likely it is that you are going to get something you actually want. You don't choose what to unlock, every 15 fame you get a gift.

To start off, you have precisely the same chance as getting a fiery hilt unlocked as you do the elite skill Bull's Charge - just an example.

As for making it available while losing - if a PvE'er dies on the way to a boss using an elite that person wants, they shouldn't still get the elite because they tried.

Edit: My first suggestion was, yes, the version of the SoC system I stated AND xaanix's idea for tombs. It came up multiple times that PvP'ers wanted some kind of reward system, and that seemed the most reasonable without undermining a PvE'ers efforts completely.

Lazarous · May 13, 2005, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Mobs are stupid, people are not. The success rate for victories vs people is gonna be a lot lower than that vs mobs, so you have to take that into consideration when doling out rewards.

As to pvers getting rewards for dying - all they need to do is get to the boss and use signet of capture - they don't need to survive the encounter.

Laz

Bamelin · May 13, 2005, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

4) Since you can quest for the elites, like you can for other skills, make them also available at skill vendors. There is a division of skills between your primary and secondary profession, just make a third divsion for the elites available at that skill vendor. Since some people may complain about an idea like this giving people "everything all at once," the elites the vendors carry will also scale from the Ruins of Ascalon all the way to end game, and will be the exact same elites you could have quested for. The difference is that the elites the vendors sell should start at something around 1000 gold for the first purchase of an elite and then go up by either 500 or 1000 gold for the next elite purchase.

This at least gives more than one way to unlock elite skills, and makes using a signet to grab elites easier and less time consuming (granted some elites take about 20 minutes to get, but others take an hour or more).

At last some sense! This is exactly what people have been asking for ... the option to buy elites of vendors the same as we can normal skills. Those that enjoy questing and PvE stuff can do so ... those that do not enjoy those things can just buy what they need off the vendors. Sounds fair to me.

Lazarous · May 13, 2005, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Apparently our enjoyment of the game cheapens their's. Or something, i can't quite make it out.

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamelin

At last some sense! This is exactly what people have been asking for ... the option to buy elites of vendors the same as we can normal skills. Those that enjoy questing and PvE stuff can do so ... those that do not enjoy those things can just buy what they need off the vendors. Sounds fair to me.

Yea, either way (using the quest suggestion I posted) it would cost 1 skill point, then either 100 gold + quest, or the gold cost of the vendor, so basically your buying your time lol.